How HR leaders turn advocacy into influence in the C-suite.

Amy Frampton: Hi, everyone that's joining. Thank you so much for joining us today. I can see the numbers. growing here, as we join. As you join us today, I would love it if you would put in the chat where you're… where you're… I was gonna say dialing in from, but that's so antiquated. Where you're zooming in from is maybe the right word.

Tulsa, Oklahoma, New York. This is… this is one of my favorite parts of any webinar, is finding out. People are literally everywhere, it's so fun. And Abby and Rachel, let us know where you are, too. Do it verbally.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Beautiful Carlsbad, California, North Coast San Diego.

Amy Frampton: Awesome. Abby?

Abby Wilson: I'm in… I was gonna say sunny LA, but it is not sunny. It is, it's a little dreary at the moment, so I guess, a little dreary LA, afternoon for you.

Amy Frampton: There you go, and Zara.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: I got a shout-out from Caitlin, Caitlin about Carlsbad, so yay! I love it. Home to Legoland, I think is what it's most famous for.

Azar Kheraj: I'm dialing in from Austin, Texas.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Nice.

Amy Frampton: Thanks for telling us. Yeah, I love seeing all the… lots of Californians today. So we were talking in the prep for the folks from California, we were talking in the prep about the fact that California's supposed to get a bunch of rain this weekend. So, I think that's usually needed, so that should be maybe a good thing. We're gonna get… I'm in… I'm in Park City, Utah, and we're gonna get lots of snow this weekend, which we always want, so…

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Beautiful.

Amy Frampton: Yeah, we always want… Yeah, rainy days. It is… we are definitely moving into winter, I think, for everyone, no matter… Toronto's on here… Whether you're California or Toronto, I think we're all moving into, to winter these days.

We've still got a bunch of folks joining, so I'll wait just a second before we get started, and… Just ask folks to continue to share where you're joining. It feels like we've got the state of California here, from north to south, so that's awesome. Our speakers are from California, two of them at least, so…

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Now I feel like we have to do a thing on, like, all the crazy employment law in California. We have so many people working from there.

Amy Frampton: Yeah, maybe a whole nother webinar. Excellent. Well, we're gonna have a conversation today about, HR, and I think a really good conversation around HR and how to influence in the C-suite, and I'm excited about this because we have, and we'll do introductions in a minute, but We have folks both who are HR leaders, Abby and Rachel, and we're gonna hear from them, and we're also gonna hear from Azar. Azar is Nava's… CFO, he's also been a COO, and so we have a full… a full view into, how HR can advocate, influence, and, really maintain their seat at the leadership table to drive strategy and, and, outcomes, that they're looking for.

So my name's Amy Frampton. I am the Chief Marketing Officer here at Nava. I'm your MC today, so I get the fun of participating in the conversation and helping us all hear from these great speakers. Let's do some quick introductions, and then we'll dive in. Azar, do you want to start?

Azar Kheraj: Yeah, of course. Hi everybody. As Amy said, my name is Azar Karaj. I am the Chief Financial Officer here at Nava.

Prior to Nava, I was the chief operating officer at a real estate tech company called Household that was acquired by the Royal Bank of Canada a couple years ago. And then before that was an early employee at Compass, kind of helping lead, expansion strategy out of the New York office. And I started my career in financial services, so did a little stint at Lazard on the investment banking front, and was at Bridgewater Associates on the portfolio management team for a couple years. before, making the transition to the startup world, and I've been a lot happier since.

Amy Frampton: Awesome. Abby?

Abby Wilson: Hi, everybody. I'm Abby. I am the VP of HR at Rode. I've been here since, about a year, since last December. Lots going on in that year. Prior to that, I spent roughly, like, 8 years in private equity, doing a lot of, like, culture transformation, HR transformation work across all of the portfolios. And then, yeah, made the jump, similar to Azar, into the startup world, and, it's been a very fun and enlightening experience ever since.

Amy Frampton: Rachel?

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Hi, I'm Rachel Whiffin. I am the head of people and culture at Sleep AI, another startup, it looks like we're all… So, we focus on… sleep improvement technology and research and development. I have been working in HR for 20-plus years, building and scaling HR functions and HR operations, really everything from startups to mid-sized U.S. entities, and even with global retailers like PetSmart and Home Depot.

Amy Frampton: Well, we're so excited to have you here and for this conversation. For folks listening in, for sure, go ahead and put questions in. We'll cover any questions that you have. As I mentioned a little bit prior, we're excited to have this group together because Rachel and Abby are stellar HR leaders and have been working to think about how are they advocating for employees and programs and driving people-centered strategies.

Azar, you know, coming from the CFO and COO perspective, also has, over time, you know, been involved in the HR perspective. So, you're not just gonna hear here HR tips. This is meant to be a real conversation. By these leaders in terms of… in terms of influence. So, let's start, I think, at the… at the beginning, Rachel and Abby, what does earning a seat mean to you? What is that, like, let's define what we're even talking about.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Yeah.

Abby Wilson: Yeah, I think when we say earning a seat, I think it's first really knowing how to show up as enterprise leaders, or business leaders, and really knowing how the business operates. Where are our strengths and opportunities? How does the business make money? What is our overall business strategy? What are our goals?

Because if we want other functional leaders. to really welcome our perspective at this, like, metaphorical table that we all talk about, we have to be equally as prepared as they are and well-versed in the business. And I think sometimes that can be lacking, and so we come in as functional experts, and we really want our voice to be heard. We feel like, hey, we have this seat.

But ultimately, everyone else at the table is an enterprise leader first. So, that would be kind of my thought in, like, what that really means.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: I agree 100%. It's… it's understanding the business, and not just your piece of the business, but the full business, really. How you make money, what the financials are, even things like cash flow, understanding products and services, because you're also a brand, like, a brand ambassador, so when people ask you what you do, like, you need to really be able to talk about the business.

And then, the way to… the way to show up is translating whatever your business priorities are, your business needs, your business… your… the business opportunities. How do they connect with whatever your HR strategy is? So, it can't be siloed, you know? You think, you know, as the leader of your HR group, you know, you're hearing information come from your teams, you're seeing what the need, you've got things that you want to work on, and the only way you can really be successful is if you connect those to the overall, like what Abby said, the overall enterprise needs, the overall enterprise strategy, and if you don't know the business, you can't do that.

Amy Frampton: That's great advice. I'd love to hear a time from either or both of you of a time when it landed really, really well for you, and kind of using these theories, and I'd love to hear about a time where you had, you know, you feel like a really great idea, but maybe it didn't get traction. Like, I mean, that's the real conversation, right? Is that we all learn from those opportunities.

Abby Wilson: For sure, for sure. I think… if I think about, you know, a time where it really landed, I would say it really follows, kind of. a kind of a method, maybe, that I've, discovered over time, because I learned from all the times that it didn't land. And I think, for me, I go into every one of my leadership meetings. If I'm going to be pitching an initiative, if I'm going to be talking about our strategy.

And I need alignment on it. I have one to two slides. I'm a big fan of a deck. Obviously, it doesn't work for every environment, but for me, it does. And I have a really clear problem statement at the very top. And I want all of us to be aligned on that problem statement before we move forward. Because if no one else is identifying that it's a problem, then I'm probably wasting my breath here a little bit. But if I can get that, and we can all agree that, hey, this is the issue, then we can go further into, like, more of a high-level context section.

So this is going to be the data-driven bullet points, explaining how did we get here. why this is a problem, why should we be prioritized fixing it, key questions that we want answered, and then I get to get into my recommendation, my approach, and I really like to start. So, this is my plan, this is how much it's gonna cost, here's who needs to be involved, here's the timeline, here's the milestones, and ultimately, here's how we're gonna measure it. And then that is just enough information for everybody to start kind of poking into. I got a whole appendix in the back that goes deep into details if they need it, right? And then I can kind of pull up.

But I'm not starting with a bunch of information that ultimately no one else in that room probably understands in the way that I understand it. And… because I wouldn't want our CMO to do that with me, right? I don't know the ins and outs of marketing, so why would I want all of this additional data?

And so I think about this as, like. you know, when we talk about employee engagement, when we talk about comp and benefits, learning and development, any of these really big things, these meaty things that you really have to spend some time planning on, this is, for me, a great way to kind of come to the team and go, here's what we're talking about, here's what I need your buy-in on. And it allows us to move forward a lot quicker with that alignment and that buy-in, in my experience.

Rachel, I don't know about you.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Yeah, I agree as well, and I will tell… I mean, I'll give you an example, too, but, like, sometimes before you get into that meeting, you also may kind of, like, lay some groundwork with some of the other execs, and, I'm so excited that Azar is on… is on the… I don't want to say call anymore, that's antiquated, but is in the meeting, because, like, in HR, make the CFO your best friend, like, get some insight on the budget ahead of time. Like, especially if you're asking for money, and almost everything I ask for has a little bit of price tag. But yeah, I mean, I'll tell you… you know. there are so many… well, yeah, there are a lot of examples that have not gone well. There are examples, I think one that went really well, but I had to do a little bit of pushing, was around upgrading that HR tech stack, and I don't know if anybody has ever had to change or upgrade or implement, HR tech.

It is a little bit of a challenge. Most HR people don't want to do it, and most of the executive team does not want to do it. There's typically not a big appetite for that. But, again, I had just come into Sleep AI, small startup. I was one of the first I would say, like, formal HR folks that were there.

And we were really scaling. We were scaling here in the US, we were scaling… I have a small team in Dublin, Ireland, and I walk in, and we have a very basic payroll system. Like, just payroll, nothing else. And the one thing about trying to be strategic in HR, especially at… and this company is the first company I've ever been in HR of, like. one and a half, I claim a half, because I have a person that runs payroll, is you have to get the foundational pieces right. You have to get the basics right, and if it's just you and another person, you can't be strategic unless you get all the operational things down and running efficiently. And the truth is, the best way to do that is through technology, or at least in my opinion, it's through technology. But… I come in, I have… I'm talking to the managers, you know, it's hard for them to do certain things. Everything is manual, everything outside of payroll is manual. Performance management, anything around compensation, anytime you want to hire somebody, like. just people sending resumes with no ATS. I mean, it was really just a mess. So I… I knew there was a little bit of… appetite for it, but the truth is, it was mid-year, there was zero budget, you know? Like, technically, if you want to switch over to a new HR system, a new tech system, like, you want to do it on January 1, because there's all sorts of other issues. So, it was a little bit of a hard sell, but really, just like with Abby, really making sure when I walked into the room, and I had done a little bit of work, getting some foundational things out there, but really making the business case that it wasn't just, like, a nice-to-have for HR, oh, it'll make my life so much easier.

But not only would it make my life easier and create efficiencies, which talks to time saving and money saving and productivity, but then I could also relate it back to the rest of the team. It would help if I had manager self-service, it would help if I had employee self-service. And then, really, the thing I think, for this particular key was. The company was scaling. And we were growing both in the US and in Ireland, and we had no technology for my Ireland team. And so, the case was, look, if you really want to scale up, if you want to create efficiencies, if you want to have uniform policies and procedures and all the foundational things that you've asked me to do, and that you hired me to do. This is what I need, this is why I need it. this is the budget, and I had sort of talked to the CFO before to kind of know what my budget limitations were, and there were some compromises, right? I didn't get the best system, I didn't get everything all at once, but I got enough to start. And sometimes that might be okay, too. Like, you might push this amazing initiative, you have all your statistics, you have all the data, you have Everything around it.

And it's, it's not necessarily a no, but it's not 100% yes, and sometimes just to take it. It's… it's a foot in the door, and then what happened was people were actually so… I don't know if they were happy with the system, but they were impressed, and it did make things easier, it made life a lot simpler, and then when I asked to get some of the additional upgrades, like the LMS system, or the performance manual… performance performance management module, it was a lot easier to sell, so… But yeah, try and figure out what's important to the CEO, the COO, and the CFO, and connect your initiative to whatever that is for the long… short-term or the long-term goals of the company.

Amy Frampton: Yeah, I love that. It's true for marketing, too, by the way. Yeah.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: It's true.

Amy Frampton: are you've been in those roles, you know, CFO, COO. I'd love to hear from your thoughts, like, what helps things get traction, with you, and how do you think people showing up, from your perspective. What are you seeing as what works?

Azar Kheraj: I think the example Rachel gave is such a good, like, robust one, in that, I think, first and foremost, it's what is… how does the initiative that you're trying to, like, make progress on or really land, how does that contribute to business objectives? And kind of honing in on the, like, primary or key one. So, and Rachel, in your case, like, while this HRIS system may have helped with 15 different things across a bunch of different areas of the business.

The real key was, at Sleep, we are trying to scale and grow, and we are unable to do that, even though that is a key business objective or priority for the next year, if we don't increase efficiency in this particular way. And so, it's not a, like, hey, this'll get us so many different things. It's like, what is the key pain point or key challenge that this, you know, investment or effort is going to really drive? it's great to have a bunch of different things that, you know, any initiative will do, but it's like, what's the primary one, and how does that ladder up to, like, key business objectives? I think the second piece is really around data, right? Like, companies are increasingly oriented around, like, what are the metrics, what are the data, both inter… what is the data, both internally and relative to benchmarks, that suggest that there is a problem, or what's the benefit you're going to get. And so, in Rachel's example, it's X amount of hours wasted from managers that could have gone towards this other thing, or employee dissatisfaction because performance reviews are delayed, and therefore comp increases get delayed. It's like, what is the actual impact, and how do I put numbers behind it to showcase that there is an issue?

And I think the third piece is really around the flexibility in terms of, like, recommendations and trade-offs. We always want a recommendation, like, we want to know what you would do, but it's always helpful to have, you know. low, medium, high investment options, or quick win versus, you know, larger, longer-term initiative, or even, and again, Rachel's example, we implement the HRIS first, and then we can add on modules as we grow, and that just shows that you're being, one, money-minded, and have an eye on the bottom line. And… creating solutions that are flexible and tailored for your business as it grows and as it evolves. I think that was an awesome example.

Abby Wilson: I'll… I'll jump in there, Azar, because when I think about sometimes where something, like, has not landed or hasn't worked, it actually comes back to what you just said, which was being more money-minded.

And I… I think back, a lot of this has to do with comp. I'm sure we've all hit a lot of roadblocks when it comes to comp philosophies or comp planning, but I think back in a prior role, we had all this, energy around creating, like, a really strong comp philosophy. you did all the pre-work, right? We got everybody on board with, like, yeah, we want a comp philosophy, and we decided we want to, like, lead the market in comp, right? Like, we want the best talent, so we want to lead.

What I did not do, what my team did not do, was go, okay, before we jump into doing all of the work on this. Let's look at the money, even at a high level. We don't have to spend weeks and weeks and weeks doing the analysis, but what we could do is, at a quick high-level analysis, go, this is how much it would roughly cost us To leave, this is how much it would cost us to meet, and we knew we were trailing, but this is where we're at today with trailing.

And instead… and then that would have given people options, right? To your point of, like, hey, let's be a little bit more money forward, or… okay, we want to lead the market, but maybe we do that in 5 years. And we work on getting… And instead, we went all in on, like, cool, you told us lead, let's do it. And we put this whole, you know, months-long project in front of the exec team, and the sticker shock was just, like.

And it just got shot down immediately, right? Because it was like, well, that will never happen in the way in which that you just presented that. And I think that that is a good lesson learned of, yeah, doing that immediately was pretty much impossible from a budget perspective. what we could have done was really look at what are our different options that are on the table that would work for different budgets, which would have been a much smarter way of getting that legs on the project, so it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Azar Kheraj: Totally.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: And sometimes it's… it's not a no, it's just a not now. And I've had plenty… I've had plenty of programs where that happened. In fact, I tried to do the same, so the HRIS system that we… I was able to push through. About a year later, I was like, oh, I really want to bring in this amazing recognition platform, and it talks to all my other platforms, and I had, you know, we had gotten I had data around… from exit interviews, and turnover, and my turnover metrics, and our engagement survey, and I… everything.

And I presented it, and it actually wasn't super expensive, but it wasn't in the budget. And, and I did everything exactly the way I pushed through the HRIS system. And in the meeting, they were like, yes, recognition is so important, and we really like what you're saying, and we want to do something. but not now. Like, I asked to off-cycle, it wasn't in the, you know, it was in the middle of the year, we hadn't budgeted for it, and there was support around, I think, the concept, but not necessarily… it was… I… what I hadn't done, talking about not doing my homework, what I hadn't done was align The initiative with, like I don't know what you would… maybe, like, the business cycle, or sort of where we were in the year, and I feel like if I had just maybe brought that in at the, you know, mid-Q4 to be like, hey, maybe for next year, why don't we start thinking about this and laid the groundwork, it might have been better received. So there are… there are a lot of things where You're close, or you've got a great idea, and you're… you have some support, but, like, there's something just a little bit off. And this isn't just HR, this is when anybody's doing anything with the executive team, it's like, you sort of have to know where you are in the year, and you also have to know, like. is there any extra money? Startups like mine, you're up and down, like, sometimes you're like, we got tons of sales coming in, and then other months, you're like, gotta ratchet it back, this is not the time to ask for things. So, really being mindful for that, and that's what I… I mean, I wasn't joking before, like, I do a lot of free work with my CFO, before I… before I even do the deep dive, just like, what do you think? How do you think it's gonna go? What… what are my options? What are the budget? And sometimes before I even get Two bullet points, and he's like, nope.

Not this year, and I'm like, okay. And you have to be okay with that, because I also know that they're not necessarily saying no because it's HR, although sometimes it is. Sometimes it's like, if it's not related to sales, revenue, or cash flow, I don't want to hear it. And that would go for any other department as well.

Amy Frampton: It's a perfect segue into the… I was… I was loving listening to you. Rachel, as you were… as you were talking about getting aligned with finance, and Azar's face lit up as his… one of his business partners, I… You were speaking his love language, for sure, so that makes a lot of sense to me.

But let's talk about how do we build partnership through alignments, and what does alignment really mean? Does it have to be around everything around something you're trying to land with the executive team, or what matters most there?

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Yeah, I mean… So for me… well, building relationships in general at work is building relationships, so not… I mean, I don't know that you would do anything different with the executive team or not. I… I'm a huge fan of, like, just getting to know how your team thinks, how… what's important to them, how they make decisions, how they like to hear information. I think Abby talked about it first, like. I had one of the first SVPs of operations I worked with, I was… when I was with Home Depot. You know, I'm an HR, I'm like a Moore's Moore person. And, like, after 2 months, she sat me down, she's like. 3 bullet points.

I don't hear anything more, give me 3 bullet points. If I need more… I'll ask for more. You know, so you… you have to kind of understand where they're coming from, and you have the situational leadership of, like, what… what's going to resonate with them. You know, my current CEO, who I've worked with for 5 years and I love, but he's a processor. So, like, bring an idea, sometimes he says no immediately.

And then, like, 3 days later, come back and be like, thought about that. I, I… I like that, or I'd be interested in that. So, like, I never also… like, I also don't take no too harshly in the beginning, because I know it might change. So, I… I think… it's around understanding who they are, coming with how you know that they'll receive, how they'll receive the… the information, and just, and again, I think it still goes back to… Is what you're… I… so we're all… we're all in it together. We're all trying to do the best thing for the company, and so I… I try and remember that as well when I'm asking for things. And so, when I… when I come to those, having those relationships, or even if we're not 100% aligned, or even if… It's not like you're not best friends with people on the team, you know, you are all trying to get to the same place, and so, I think that's a great way of getting alignment, especially when you're maybe asking for something that might not be super popular, or there may not be a financial appetite for it, or whatever it is.

Abby Wilson: Yeah, I think, you know, the thing that I… I find so fun about being a part of a leadership team is that it's… it's cross-functional, right? It's really the first time, we… we get promoted into this leadership role, and now, all of a sudden, our number one team is a cross-functional team, right? Our number two team is our functional team. And so, these cross-function leaders are sitting around this table, and we all have the same end goal in mind.

So we're gonna have very different approaches on how to get to that end goal, oftentimes. But that's what kind of makes it so fun and so special, is that we all have different perspectives, we have different skill sets, and we have to lean on that. Like, we have to do this as a team. And so… as long as we're aligned on the what, we can kind of pull pieces of the how together. Because there's very, very few times where, and Rachel, tell me if you disagree, where we're gonna be able to do something in a silo by ourselves. We're gonna need everybody, and so we should be listening to our cross-functional partners. We should be getting feedback from them. If my CFO was saying, like, now is not the right time, I do need to listen. I might disagree, we could go back and forth a little bit, but,

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Yeah.

Abby Wilson: he's got more insight into some of the long-term numbers than I do. So, I think there's a lot of, like, trust and respect that comes from being a part of that cross-functional team, and I think the more we trust and respect our peers, the more they trust and respect us, too.

Amy Frampton: Azar, how do you look at this in terms of partnership? You know, looking at HR as a real partner in the room, you know, how does that… how does that show up for you? And where have you seen it really work?

Azar Kheraj: Yeah, totally. I think… every leadership team you would talk to is going to say that, like, their human capital is one of their biggest assets. It's just a drum that needs to get beat kind of repeatedly to help kind of show how that manifests at any given or specific time, or for a given or specific initiative, right? I think, like, the intention, Abby, as you were talking about, is always good. It's just the, like, there's some… there's usually just a disconnect in, like, why now, or why is this additive in a specific way for a specific thing. And so I think, like, really, proactivity is huge, when it comes to kind of how HR can partner strategically within an executive team. And I think of that in kind of two ways. One is, like, we've talked a lot about data and numbers, and… I think if there's a way to proactively share some of the insights or data, numbers, initiatives, kind of how they're going, what impact they're having, so that people when you're coming with something that you want to do, that's not the first time they're seeing an NPS score, or it's not the first time they're seeing a metric around, like, employee retention, or non-regrettable churn, or, like, those types of things. data that they're already familiar with, and you can point to to say, hey, like, based on these things that I've already talked to you about, this is why we need to do X, Y, and Z. And so, like, your… your sell in that case is not, I need to sell you on the fact that these metrics matter and are important, and also that we need to do something about it. You're kind of eliminating one of the two like. fronts that you're fighting the battle on. And so, like, I think the more you can proactively communicate some of this stuff out, what you see is important in terms of what you're measuring within the business from an HR perspective, and, like, build that fluency from the leadership team, and that predictability of, like, hey, Abby and Rachel are going to be measuring this, they're going to do it monthly, it is an important metric, and here's why.

It goes a really long way in trying to, like, actually get what you want done, because then you can point to those things, and there is that fluency. I think on the second area of proactivity is around, identifying the key stakeholders that can… that either you can help support, or that can support you in getting things across the finish line. And so, like, an example here is when… when I was at Compass, one of the years, like, towards the end of my time, we were focused on, like, rapid expansion, and so we were trying to launch 10 major cities in, like, 18 months, which was… Very ambitious, and… As one of the people who was, like, helping manage that initiative, I had an HR leader come to me and say, hey, there is no way that we're going to, like. hire excellently, or manage people across 10 different markets in an efficient way until we do things like comp leveling, or creating organizational ladders for each of these roles, or manager enablement, because now people are going to have distributed teams. I would love to be a strategic partner in your broader expansion initiative, because I think these are foundational to us actually achieving those goals.

And she became a, like, co-sponsor, or I became a co-sponsor of the things that she wanted to do, to say, hey, this is the business objective, it's a thing that she wanted to do anyway, and we saw that, like, presenting a united front with the executive team actually allowed us to get both of our things done at the same time. And so, like, building that consensus amongst, like, director, VP level, and kind of presenting United Front on how you and other stakeholders can kind of help each other. tie or marry some of these things together in a strategic lens is, like, huge, and I'll get you through those budget approval meetings or those, executive alignment sessions in a lot… in a lot more effective way.

Amy Frampton: Yeah We've been talking a lot about how do you build trust and partnership and alignment, and we love all those things. Obviously, that's what we… what we want for all of the HR leaders on the Zoom. But, you know, even when you have trust and partnership, sometimes things get in the way. Sometimes… you know, things go sideways, or you're not brought into a conversation early enough in the HR side. I'd love to hear, Abby and Rachel, kind of, what… what can get in the way? What have you seen? And… and then how do you… you know, how do you say, okay, that wasn't optimal, I'm gonna re-engage and help this move forward?

Abby Wilson: Yeah, I mean, I think… oftentimes, I… there's a lot of ideas that come to mind, Rachel. I'm sure the same for you.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Absolutely correct, I love it.

Abby Wilson: I would say early on in my, like, seat-at-the-table career, I kind of took a stance of, like, well, if you didn't bring me in, you know, watch the fire. and kind of do what I told you so, that won't get you very far, right? Because no one is going to remember I told you so the next time something like this happens. They're just going to remember that you weren't helpful. So you're not going to get brought into the conversation again.

So instead, like, if I use an example of a prior company, that was going through a challenging time, so unfortunately, layoffs had to happen, but I was not brought into the conversation around where the decisions were being made around And this, this, I think, has happened for a lot of us, especially around COVID times. I could have just been like, alright, fine, you're, you know. dig your own hole. Instead, I was like, hey, how much time do we have here to make some changes? Because I did have data around performance, I had data around, like, recent promotions, teams that were stretched really thin, those culture champions that really had a lot of influence, so, like, that you might not want to let go. So there was just a lot of, I think, nuanced data that could be helpful.

And I said, if we have time for me to, like, review this and look over it, I think we may be able to make some changes here where the line item in the budget stays the same, but we make some more strategic choices. are you open to that input or not, right? Ultimately, it's their choice, and if they said no, then I would say, okay, it is my job to carry this out with you alongside of you. I'm just here to advise, right? I'm gonna advise you on the best path in the course, and you could ultimately choose to take it or not. And so we came to some agreements. Some, you know, I voiced my opinion on, and they said no. To Rachel's point, there's… they're not always going to get 100% consensus. You're not going to get a yes on everything you say. But again, it goes back to, like, we're a team, so we're working on this together.

And again, I felt like you made the best out of a bad situation, and we did the best we could as a team, but we stood side by side, as opposed to kind of having your arms crossed and being like.

I don't co-sign this. And so I'm just gonna stand back and watch it burn.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: And I will say… And I agree with you. I think a lot of times when HR is brought in late, it's usually on a performance issue or on an exit, and it's probably because they don't want to hear what we have to say, because we want to do… you know, they… either they don't want to have the tough conversation, they don't want to do the work, they don't want to go through the process, and that's okay.

And again, we act as advisors, usually in those situations, you want more concerned about the full team and the… and sort of productivity and culture. Sometimes in these situations, I'm more concerned about sort of the legal. I have my little legal hat on.

And I'm like, look, you know, I don't want to get us into any legal trouble, you know, we're small, we can't afford that. And, you know, again, we make our case. I always say, look, I've got 25 years working in HR, I, you know, I've seen some of these not go well. Sometimes that's a persuasive argument, sometimes it's not. But I do think… Even though, like, in my little cynical HR way, I'm just like, that's what you sound. I don't want to do that. In my brain… in my inside voice, I say that, I don't say that in my outside voice, but I do think it's okay to come back around the next time and just… gentle reminder, not that I told you so, but hey, I just want to remind you, last time we went down this path, and we didn't follow process, or whatever it is you had recommended that first time, and it went sideways, it didn't really go our way, and I'd prefer not to go down that path again. And I do find that that can be persuasive. Not with every leader. you know, again, you have to know your leaders, you have to know your team. But I do think it's okay to remind folks, like. you know, I'm… I'm the… I'm the expert when it comes to the people and the culture. I've got X years of, you know, you hired me to do this job, I have X years of experience, you know, really… I'm here to advise, again, the ultimate goal is you… we are all in this room, we are all trying to do the best possible thing for the company. Here's my recommendation. And so… Sometimes you can move the needle that way. Not all the time, sometimes you can.

Abby Wilson: I like the circle back around, and, like, a phrase that I've used before is, you know, we did it the way that you wanted to the last time, and it didn't have the best, you know, outcome or consequence, or here was the consequence of that. Are you open to trying a different way this time? Are you open to doing it, you know, based on my recommendations? Most people don't want to.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: You're nicer than me. I don't know if I would say, are you open? I would…

Abby Wilson: doing it.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: I, I need to join.

Abby Wilson: buy-in, right? Because I also will acknowledge I don't always have the right answers, right? So I'm not saying that doing it my way is going to yield us the best result, but if I ask for openness, most people don't want to say they're close.

It's like a psychology thing. And two, it also is like… it's like, well, we could do it your way again, and the likelihood is it's going to end up not good. So, like, what's the harm in trying it this way, right? Where's the concern?

And maybe you have some valid concerns, and let's talk about it, but ultimately, it is… it's a way to kind of get them on… on your side, or seeing it through your lens a little bit, so we don't keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

Amy Frampton: Azar, from your perspective, why… you know, why do you see sometimes people maybe don't bring HR in when they should? You know, when we might wish they would? What have you noticed just sitting in those meetings?

Azar Kheraj: Yeah, I don't… just flat out, I don't think it's, like, intentional. Like, I really don't believe there's any, like, bad or malintent in terms of, like, not including people. It's just, like, I think, especially meetings where, like, there are decisions that need to be made, a lot of… I think a lot of leaders bias towards, like, the smallest group possible, so that you can, you know, have an effective conversation, because I think we all know the larger a meeting gets, the more it can end up being a little goat rodeo. And so, like, the smaller the… the smaller the group is usually kind of what people are biasing towards, and this is where I think it's, like, the… the leader in question either sees HR as kind of an escalation path, rather than.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: strategic.

Azar Kheraj: strategic ally, or, they just don't, like, immediately recognize the connection between business strategy and people strategy. And so I know I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but I think this is a lot of where the proactivity really comes in, of the, like, helping people draw those connections, that, like, there is a very real connection between your people strategy and your business outcomes, and here are the metrics that show that, or suggest that, or are tied to financial outcomes. I think one of the things that our… my HR leader at my last company did extremely well was, every finance team sends out a monthly reporting packet to internal executive leaders, right? It's your budget versus actual, it's where the business is relative to plan, those types of things.

She really pushed to include one slide in that reporting package that was, here is, you know, what's going on with our employee base. So, NPS scores, retention, timelines to hiring, those types of things. And so, this is a reporting package that she knew every executive looked at, because it had it had their budget, it had how they were doing versus those financial metrics and goals, and so by including that reporting in that, you're kind of mentally tying these two things together in a more material, meaningful way, and you're creating the visibility around, like, hey, HR is part of all of this, and so, like.

Rachel, I think you mentioned this. first question, but around, like, understanding what the operating cadence or the rhythm of your business really is, and kind of finding ways to insert your, priorities or initiatives or metrics or data into that ongoing rhythm, I think is a really good way of getting that visibility and drawing those direct mental connections so that, no one… Unintentionally leaves you out of some of those conversations.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: And I do want to just qualify, like. if you're… if you're in a small HR… small HR organization, or maybe just HR of one like me, you know, and your company hasn't done a ton with HR metrics and data, that's… that's okay. You know, you don't have to create this huge HR scorecard and pull all this data all the time. I mean, even just tracking some simple numbers, voluntary turnover, involuntary turnover.

If you're scaling up things like you know, average days to hire, or even things like internal mobility, which tracks, like, promotions and things like that. Like, even just 3 or 4 small metrics that just… Kind of gets some of that… what I would call… I think we bring a lot of employee narrative to the table, which is great, because stories kind of win hearts, but… the data kind of wins the mind, if that makes sense. And so, you don't have to have a whole huge thing. And the truth is, most of your HRISs probably pull all this data, or have an easy, quick dashboard, or, like, just, you know, you can go on ChatGBT and be like, how do I pull turnover numbers? How do I pull this? And you can take your turnover numbers, and then you compare it with some of your exit data, or exit survey data, which is the narrative why people are leaving, and it can build a compelling case, but you don't have to feel like you are a data expert. I'm not. I went into HR because I'm not a data expert. I did horrible in math.

I like a spreadsheet, but, like, if my HMRS can pull the reports and the data for me, I want to do that. And so, again. It's… a little bit of data can go a long way.

Abby Wilson: Totally.

Amy Frampton: Yeah, I love that. The hearts and the minds, right? You have both those pieces together, and a good HRIS should do that for sure. as… as we wrap… start to wrap up, we've got lots of questions, but before we go into those, I'd love each of you to just share… maybe we'll go in alphabetical order this time, so Abby is our Rachel.

As a child with an A name, I was always… always had to be very first or very last, so I'm gonna do the same thing here. I love, you know, one pro tip. What's your, you know, if you… people to take away one thing from this webinar, what… from you, what would it be? What's your pro tip? And no pressure, Abby, I put you first, but, what's the takeaway you want to… you want everyone to leave with?

Abby Wilson: I think, actually, the three of us have kind of pounded this same drumbeat throughout, so I… I think that this is a big one, which is data-driven storytelling.

We are narrative experts. We have all of that, but we also have the data, and when we can become experts at creating that story and that narrative around the data, I think we end up creating extremely compelling cases for whatever it is that we are ultimately achieving. And so it is that kind of, like, winning of hearts and minds that will, I think, move you further and get you in more rooms, if you're able to do both of those things.

Amy Frampton: Great one. Azar?

Azar Kheraj: I would plus one that and would say, like, don't just do it when we need something. It's do it in a more consistent way, so that that fluency or that understanding of those numbers and how they interplay with the rest of the business, and how that narrative actually, like, manifests over time, so that, again, you're not trying to convince people of two different things in a conversation, that this is important, and this is how you fail.

Start to lay the foundation on the why things are important, why the metrics that you want to track or the, like, priorities that you have are what they are, so that when it comes to the having the conversation around allocating spend or efforts towards some of those things, you're not trying to do two things in that conversation, you're kind of just doing that one.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: I mean, ultimately, people's strategy is business strategy, so you have to understand the business, you have to operate like an owner and like an operator, and if you don't, that's okay. Or if you feel like you haven't gotten a seat at the table, that's okay. Spend time. Spend some time with the CFO. Spend some time with the COO.

Spend time with all your line leaders. I mean, I've sat in plenty of stand-ups with my engineers, and I didn't know what a Scrum Master was until I came to this company, and I didn't understand, you know, what C++ was, and, you know, like, learn… learn the business. Most people… Like, if you ask somebody to help you, they're not going to say no if you show the interest. Now, they may not reach out to you proactively, so show them your interest. When I worked in retail, I started my HR career in field retail, and I was storeside. I mean, we would call it a ride-along. Like, spend time with the operators in their space, doing whatever, just listen to them. asking questions, even if it had nothing to do with HR. It's the best way to learn the business, and when they see that you are interested in understanding the business and trying to bring the best results for the business, it gets you so much farther. I feel like that has been the best experience… learning that early on in my career, understanding the business, working with the operators, understanding how they speak and think and how they want to get information, has taken me so… it's probably the thing that has taken me farthest in my career.

Amy Frampton: That's so helpful. Thank you all for that, and I'm gonna hope we can take at least one question. We got a lot of questions in.

But I thought this first one was actually such a good one. So, you go in, and you're pitching the CFO, so Azar, this is… you're the… you're the blocker in this situation, so we're going to want to hear from you, too. You go in, you pitch the CFO, and there is not alignment. You know, we talked a lot about alignment.

And, how do you think about going back… And revisiting that conversation, either immediately or after, over time. How… what would you suggest to people when they feel like maybe there's… it just didn't land. The question mentioned maybe some stubbornness on the CFO's part, which, Azar, never happens, I'm sure. But, you know, how do you think about that, kind of going back and revisiting?

Abby Wilson: Yeah, I mean, I think first and foremost is understanding their objection. I think oftentimes we hear no, and Rachel brought this up so much throughout, which is, like, no doesn't mean no forever.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Why?

Abby Wilson: It doesn't have to, anyway. So, I think we hear it, and we get really dejected, and we're like, oh, I guess that's done. So, if you walk away from that meeting, and then you take some time, and you sit on it, and you realize, I don't really understand why there's a no.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Go back!

Abby Wilson: And say, like, Azar, do you mind if we, like, we spend 15 minutes? I just really want to understand. I'm pretty passionate about this. I'm really excited about it. I feel really strongly this is the right move. I heard you when you said no.

But I'd like to understand a little bit more around why, because you're gonna understand a lot more about his thinking, and where his come from is, and again, he may have data and information that you don't, and that can help you go, oh, it's just a budget issue. okay, well, what if we baked this into next year's budget? What would that look like? Is that a possibility? And then you really show your CFO that, like, we're working together here, I see you as a partner, And so, I mean, of course, this is best-case scenario, right? Of like, yeah, okay, he says yes, yes, eventually. Sometimes the answer is gonna be no, no matter what, but I think…

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Yeah.

Abby Wilson: Saining those objections does help you in the future get ahead of them When you're, kind of, pitching.

Azar Kheraj: I think that's exactly right. It's the why, because there are so many reasons for why. It could be a not now, it could be a, you know. we don't have the budget. There's also ways that, you know, especially if you have these conversations one-on-one, you can be like, alright, how do we get creative here? If I can find X dollars in some way, like, can we, you know, make it happen? I think Amy is particularly great at this as a CMO, is the, like, what… what is the goal of… or, like, what… what is the main reason you said no, and how do we, like, get to a yes by solving those one by one?

Rachel Spector Whiffin: I mean, I've been trying to change our performance management system process for, like, 4 years, and it's always… And so it's funny, because I think that… I don't… I didn't see who wrote in the question, but they said, you know, the stubbornness on the CFO side, because there's also sometimes some stubbornness on our side, too, and that's okay, and I feel like if you're really passionate about it. keep bringing… sometimes it's like, you know, if you… if any of you guys are parents, like, sometimes you just have… have to wear them down, like, you wear down the… your kids ask you so many times, they finally wear you down. You know, even if you don't agree with what the no is, or it's not a budget reason, or it's really not any reason except for they just… don't like the idea, they don't think it's gonna have any kind of outcome, stick with it. Like, if you really believe in it, stick with it.

Try and, you know, keep the pride on the inside, or the dejection. And it is, it's really hard when you get shot down in front of, like, the whole executive team, and you're like, great! But if you believe in it, I say keep… keep plugging at it. There are very few things that I would reject, that I would just take the initial no. As in if forever.

Abby Wilson: Totally. I would agree on a timeline, if you can. So if you get a no, and it's because I don't really think that this is important, right? Like, let's not say it's a budgetary issue, that's kind of an easy objection. Let's say it's like, I just don't see the importance of this. And you're like, hey, listen, I'm bringing this to you now because I'm trying to get ahead of a problem.

And Azar's like, I just don't think it's gonna be a problem.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Yeah.

Abby Wilson: Can we agree to revisit this in 6 months? Because I feel pretty confident that there is going to be a problem. And if there is, then we can sit down and talk about it. But maybe he is right, and maybe… maybe there isn't one, and we sit down and we go, alright, so there isn't. I still think there could be one eventually, do we want to revisit it now before it becomes one? Like, get some On the revisiting, at least.

Amy Frampton: I love that. Well, we are… we are at time, and I can't believe it, it went so fast, but I… I want to thank everyone who participated, sent in questions, I wish we had 3 hours to go through them all, but it just really engaged group, and thank you so much, Abby, Rachel, and Azar, for joining us today. This is obviously a hot topic, and This will also be available on demand, so we look forward to people really Really saying that, I love… someone just put the takeaways from the meeting. Gosh, that's a great… that's awesome.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: I'm really AI!

Amy Frampton: I love it! I love it so much. We will be sending out the recording for this, and so that people… you can rewatch or share. And thank you again, Rachel Abby and Azar. We really appreciate your time, and everyone for joining us. Have a great rest of the week.

Rachel Spector Whiffin: Thanks, everybody.

Amy Frampton: Thank you.

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