What the chapter on psychological safety misses about repairing it when things go sideways.

Anna Swayne: Hey everybody, and welcome to Missing Chapters! We're so excited you're here with us today, taking time out of your day to join us to talk about this really important topic. I'm especially excited to have Kiki back. She was with us a few months ago, talking about psychological safety, and I'm excited to go a little bit deeper on this session. So, while everyone's joining, please drop in the chat where you're Zooming in from. We'd love to see, where people are coming in from.

And, I'll just start. I'm zooming in from Salt Lake City, so it's a… it's a balming 32 degrees here, with no snow. We are still waiting for the snow to come, but, would love to hear where everyone else… I know, Kiki, can you believe that?

Kiki Wilkinson: We're known for…

Anna Swayne: There's snow, and it's, like, kind of getting sad and depressing that we don't have.

Kiki Wilkinson: Maha! None of the fun.

Anna Swayne: Just cold. Just cold. I know, I feel bad. People are, like, coming here to ski and… Nope. Like, there's, there's a few runs open, but it's, it's, it's very minimal. Okay, so we got a… A few people coming in. Great, love to hear where you're zooming in from. Kiki, you want to tell them where you're zooming in from?

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, absolutely. I'm zooming in from the central coast of California, so the San Luis Obispo area, it's right in between San Francisco and, San Luis Obispo area, so right in between San Francisco and LA.

Anna Swayne: Okay.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah. Yeah, it's also cold here, but I can't complain, because it is not in the 30s. It is in the low 50s.

Anna Swayne: I've been waking up…

Kiki Wilkinson: in the high 40s, freezing, so I don't know… I mean, I would be wearing mittens right now if I was you. I have my heater on under the desk.

Anna Swayne: That's funny. Yeah, I think you just kind of get used to it, but…

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, hey!

Anna Swayne: Okay, well…

Kiki Wilkinson: Hi, neighbor!

Anna Swayne: Oh, Heather, great! Thanks for… Thanks for joining us. Okay, well, if you're new to Missing Chapters, this is a series that we do basically to talk about those missing chapters within the HR book of… that don't always get talked about. We also share tips and trips… tips… oh my gosh. tips and tricks that I'm tongue-tied with this cold. Blame the cold. And yeah, we're just really excited to, have you all joining us today so we can go deeper. And so this is an open chat forum. Kiki and I are very comfortable with answering any questions on the fly, so if there's something that comes up and you want to go deeper on, or something that you've been thinking about that you want us to address.

Kiki is all in. So don't be shy. Okay, and if you're new and have never heard of NAVA, we are on a mission to fix healthcare. And when I tell this to people, they're always like, what? That seems very big. And… and it is. It's very big, but we know that the system is broken, and we are on a mission to provide affordable care to the 160 million Americans who get their healthcare from an employee-sponsored healthcare program, and so we're disrupting that space using technology to make it more affordable. So, I'm Anna, I'm gonna be the host here, Kiki's the star, and Kiki, just as a quick intro to her, she's a leadership coach, incredible speaker, just changing, how… you know, organizations can tackle big, complex problems, and especially in this conversation, she was going to be talking us through how, we can go a little bit deeper on adjusting and repairing trust around, when maybe it's been broken. So.

Kiki, do you want to do… I know that probably wasn't justice, but do you want to do a quick intro?

Kiki Wilkinson: It's always my favorite thing to hear someone else talk about what I do, because I talk about it all the time, and so to get the reflection of how other people think about it, it's always… there's always something that comes up, and I'm like, I do do that! Yeah!

Anna Swayne: Yeah, that's…

Kiki Wilkinson: That's also true. I wouldn't have said I was a great speaker, so thank you so much for that.

Anna Swayne: Oh my gosh, that was top of my list.

Kiki Wilkinson: I love it. I love it. Yes, so I'm a leadership coach, I do leadership consulting as well. I have an eye towards burnout prevention, mainly because I've gone through burnout multiple times, and it is something that can be prevented. And really, I think my goal is to give a non-judgmental space to people, to be more intentional, so they can take that intentional action towards whatever their goals are.

I think we're moving so quickly in this world, and as humans, I don't think we're set up, our nervous systems aren't set up to take in so much information. and be moving so quickly. We're not AI, we're not robots, and so that's a really good thing, but it's also something that I think really impacts how we work day to day.

And so whether we're talking about psychological safety, or we're talking about how to prevent burnout, or we're just talking about communication and how to give feedback in a way that is better received, or how to deal with conflict, I think, you know, conflict is natural. It's something that means there's engagement. If there's no conflict. there's probably not much engagement. It might not actually be a psychologically safe space if there isn't any conflict, and so I think this is such a cool topic for me to talk about, because it's not something that was necessarily part of my background, but it was something I got really good feedback on from leading teams in the past. So having a really safe space where folks felt like they could bring their full selves to work. folks felt like they could come up with ideas that might be bonkers, but no… there was no judgment, right? It was like, the more ideas we bring in, the more holistic decisions we can make.

So, yeah, I think this is such a great topic, and I'm excited to dive a little deeper with you today. Thank you for having me back, it's such a compliment, and yeah, I'm excited.

Anna Swayne: Awesome. Well, thank you for that, and thanks for everyone who's putting in the chat where they're dialing in from. So, it's nice to have you. And keep… keep doing that if, if you're still joining us and want to tell us what area you're zooming in from. Represent your area!

Okay, so like Kiki said, we chatted about this a couple months ago, psychological safety. Today, we're going to pick up and keep going from there, going deeper, focusing on what happens when psychological safety, you know, gets tested in real life. And I think, you know, there… Kiki. when we chatted about this last time, there was a lot of questions, a lot of interest, and so I'm glad we're going a little bit deeper, because I think… I think let's set the stage here, but I think… we don't know what to do. So maybe we understand… so maybe we just, like, just a quick high level on psychological safety, and then we can talk about, like, where it starts… what do we do when it starts to slip in real life, and…

Kiki Wilkinson: Why these everyday moments of detention are so defining for culture.

Anna Swayne: So, I know that's kind of a loaded question, but I think just to bring people along, if they weren't at our last session.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, absolutely. There is a recording for the last session, too, so if anyone's interested in…

Anna Swayne: the recording? Yes.

Kiki Wilkinson: Let me know.

Anna Swayne: Maybe Autumn can put that in the chat, Autumn, if you would.

Kiki Wilkinson: No.

Anna Swayne: finding that YouTube link for us.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, absolutely, but just to kind of sum up I can't remember everything we talked about in that session, but to kind of give a high level around psychological safety, Amy Edmondston has a really good definition. I'm not going to get it perfect, but it's basically the belief that someone can bring their full self to work. They're not going to feel punished or humiliated, by bringing in their questions or Their concerns, or making mistakes. They feel like they can actually bring their full self to work, bring questions, comments, ideas. And not be, not have anything negative happen to them because of that.

I think what this really means for leaders is creating the environment where people feel safe enough to take risks. We can't… Be innovative if we aren't willing to take risks. So if you want to have an innovative organization, creating the environment where people feel safe to take those risks, to share their truths, you know, we all have our own lived experience. We bring that. Whether we say we do or not, I think in the Industrial Revolution, it was this concept of, like, oh, work is work. You leave your… everything else at home, leave it at the door, and just come in and, like, do the thing, right? And maybe that's great in theory, because emotions do make things more complex. People are complex.

But there's no such thing as leaving it at the door. And if there is, you're not getting The full extent of someone's experience, or… ideas, or opinions, or questions, you're not going to make the best decisions. And so I think being able to admit when you make a mistake. Accountability goes really closely, ties really closely in with psychological safety. If you have an accountable organization, more than likely the organization is a safe space to be accountable. We all have things that we are good at, and we all have things in areas where we're not so great, and we make mistakes, we are human. So, being able to own that, figure out how to do things differently, even when it's hard, especially when it's hard. Huh.

Yeah, and you know, I think also, especially for leaders, we think that, like, oh, I'm a leader, so I have to have all the answers, or I need to do this perfectly. But it's not about doing it perfectly. Like, you can show up and say, hey.

I don't… I don't… that… that meeting didn't actually go the way that I intended it to go, and I'm not quite sure how to fix that, but I want to share what my intention was, and I want to check in and see how I can do better next time. that's such… I mean, if a leader said that to me, I would have so much respect for them, not the other way around, but I think because it feels vulnerable in your body to be like, I don't know what I did wrong, here's what I did, I'm sorry, like, that feels vulnerable, so it… Feels like maybe someone would judge us for that.

So I think, yeah, I think psychological safety is interesting, because it's not something where, you know, there's a specific framework. Like, with feedback, there's a pretty specific framework that you can use for feedback, and it works, you know, a good 85% of the time, 95% of the time, as long as you're authentic. But psychological safety is interesting because we're all different, and so it looks different. It looks different in different organizations, but there are some similarities, so I think we'll talk about some of those today, but hopefully that's a good… a general overview. Yes.

Anna Swayne: No, I think that's great. I think it's good just to set that stage of, like, when we say, well, psychological safety starts to slip in real life, it's good to just have that baseline of how we've… at least how we have talked about it in the past, so people can follow with us. So, okay, great.

That was a great, setting the stage. We dropped a link in there, so, you know, if you want to go re-watch that, or watch it. But today we're going to talk about, yeah, what happens when it starts to slip in real life, and why, you know, how can we repair that? And I think, Kiki, there's no one better to talk about this than you. So, yeah, let's dive into it.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah. So I think, really, when we're talking about repairing psychological safety, I think actually the first part of the conversation is a little bit more about proactive, so how do you set that environment? Or how do we think about culture, how do we think about building culture? I'm sure there's people that are in this room that have been a part of a really good culture, and there might have been, People that have been part of cultures that aren't so great, or are toxic in some way.

Ultimately, I think the… the goal is we… we… so, I'm gonna back up real quick. We… when we talk about culture, a lot of people will immediately start to think about mission statements, or core values, the things that are written on the walls in the… in the office, or in the employee handbook when you first join, And these are all really important, so I don't want to downgrade them. I think they are really, really important to set a standard for the company.

But the culture itself is not defined only by those statements. The culture is defined by the micro-moments that happen on a day-to-day basis. So the small water cooler conversations, the small interactions throughout the office, I've spoken with clients in the past who, they're not bringing in something that's like, oh, in this big meeting that we had. It was like… oh, you know, I went into the snack room, and I had this really weird encounter with this colleague, and I think that maybe this situation over here has caused some tension between us. How do I… how do I approach that? How do I resolve that? How do I repair it? When I don't even really know what the tension is, I just know that they made a really kind of offhanded comment that made me feel kind of bad in the snack room when I was getting chips at 3 p.m, right? And so, like… Culture is really shaped in those small moments, and I think the reason for this is because our nervous systems don't internalize statements. So we can say, this is what our culture is. our nervous system doesn't react to the words, right? Our nervous system reacts to the real emotional moments that we experience. So, whether, you know, we're having a moment where we disagree, and our nervous system is like, I don't agree with that, is it safe here for me to say, hey, I have.

Anna Swayne: Okay.

Kiki Wilkinson: concerns about that way forward? Or, you know, can we talk about some of these concerns so we can mitigate some of the risks that might come up if we do move forward in that way? Do we feel safe enough to speak up? Do we feel safe enough to disagree? Do we feel safe enough to own our mistakes? That's what builds the actual culture.

Anna Swayne: Nope.

Kiki Wilkinson: So I think… I just want to state that first, because I think that when we talk about repairing, it's really easy sometimes to go, oh, but we're a company that's collaborative. And, you know, that's great, but when we think about repairing something where we're thinking about our nervous systems, right? How do we make it safe for our nervous system to come into work? How do we make it safe to kind of go back to someone and say, hey. you know, that interaction, I don't think happened the way that I wanted it to happen. I think it's our nervous systems that we're repairing, it's not so much just the words. And I think that makes it really difficult for a lot of people.

Anna Swayne: Wow.

Kiki Wilkinson: People are like, tell me what to say. And it's like, well, it is partly what you say, but it's a lot of how you say it, and how you hold that space, that matters.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, and like, with the nervous system. You don't know all the other factors going in to that individual, which makes it very fluid to try to Fixed.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: to that person, meeting them where they are, especially if, you know, they've had this happen to them multiple times, or maybe they don't even realize it's happening, because they've.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: it happened, and so, like you said, don't even know how to describe it, or what to do with that. Or oftentimes, I think it just gets ignored.

Which then perpetuates… Maybe the… the slipping of the safety, because they don't even realize it until maybe it's so late that it's damaging.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, that ignoring piece, just a comment on that real quick, I think… sometimes I don't think that that's actually an int… like, it's not someone's intention to be like, I don't want to do that, I'm gonna ignore it. Like, and sometimes it is. Sometimes someone's like, I don't know how to deal with that, so I'm just gonna hope it goes away and brush it under the rug. Like, sometimes there is that.

Anna Swayne: kind of.

Kiki Wilkinson: Thought process, right? But I think a lot of times, it's… it's more so… oh, I'm conflicted… like, the nervous system is like, I'm conflict adverse, this feels icky, I'm just not gonna focus on it, I'm gonna focus over here. And so it's not like a… I think this is where coaching comes in, right? Like, when someone is in a coaching session with me, and they're like, oh, well, I think it's fine. I'm like, is it fine? Let's go into that a little bit more.

Anna Swayne: Let's unravel this.

Kiki Wilkinson: And I think it's always those moments where someone goes, I have to have that conversation, don't I? I'm like, yeah, I think, I think you do. You know, and then it's… and then it.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: how do I have that conversation? What's the best way for me to put my best foot forward? Most people have really good intentions. I've yet to meet someone in my coaching clients that doesn't have good intention. They don't… you know, everyone that I've met, everyone that I've talked with, they all have really positive intentions. But we are human, and we have emotions, and it is complex, and our past lived experience does matter, and we do bring it in, even if we don't want to. So to your point, I think it's that fluidity of adjusting person by person can feel really overwhelming.

But I think it all starts with curiosity. It all starts with… hey, you know, I have some feedback for you, and it's coming from a place where I really want to see you succeed, or I want to see this project succeed, some sort of, like, mutual goal that we have, right? But I want to make sure that I can give you this feedback in a way that's positive. The before I share anything, you know, I'm happy to share it now, I'm happy to share it via email, I'm happy to just wait and share it in our next one-on-one, it's not urgent.

But asking someone, how do you want feedback? Even better is to have, like, proactive Designed Alliance conversations, where folks can come together, whoever you're working with, whether it's a new project team, or it's employees, and you can do this at any time. Like, even if the employee you've had, you've had for 5 years, you can be like, hey, I watched it, you can blame it on me. I watched this session, and this girl Kiki told me, it's really great to have Design Alliance conversations, but go those conversations. It's the beginning of the year, it's a great place, like, time to do it as well, like, hey, I want to know how do you best receive feedback? Because when I give you feedback, it comes from a really good place, but feedback can be hard. It can be hard to hear, and so I want to be able to give it to you in the best way possible. How do you best communicate? Are you someone who likes to kind of internalize stuff and think about it, and then come back and have a discussion?

Anna Swayne: Oh, yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: I'm the opposite. I want to talk about it right now. You bring something up, like, I'm ready to hash it out and talk about it. And the other person, like, if you're with someone else who's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, I need some time to process. That's my relationship with my husband, I've had to learn. He needs space and time to process before. conversation, right? So, like, bringing it up. And then being able to set a time for us to further discuss it.

Anna Swayne: Mmm.

Kiki Wilkinson: But you don't know that automatically about people, and I think we oftentimes assume someone else is like us, and that's how we typically act towards others. Because we were told in kindergarten to treat others the way you want to be treated, and I think it just internalized somewhere really deep.

Anna Swayne: The mirroring of, yeah, right. Yeah, no, that's good. And I think that helps, kind of, like. set the tone for, you know, these other… this other framework we're going to get into around, psychological safety and how to repair that. But I just want to call out the fact that, okay, so, you called those designed alliance conversations?

Kiki Wilkinson: Yes, I did not make that up, and I… I'm unsure who to give credit to. I learned about it, actually by a man named Renvira. I'm not sure if he made it up either, but he was the one who taught it at Airbnb. And I just love the concept of it, right? You're designing an alliance with someone else, you're reminding them that, hey, this is my intention when I share feedback, or when I delegate something, but I want to make sure it lands. So, like, it's all about.

Anna Swayne: Curiosity.

Kiki Wilkinson: asking questions, and yeah, those Design Alliance conversations are great. It's very proactive, too.

Anna Swayne: Totally. And it fills them very personable. Like.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: for you, I'm listening to you and what your needs are, because I think, yeah, when we talk… when we talk about psychological safety slipping, it's probably because they didn't do this, or they forgot.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, there's…

Anna Swayne: Or a new leader came in, and you know, it starts to… because I think that's when sometimes, when I reflect back on my own experience, I think it, you know, back to what you said, no one's really ill-intent… is to, like, attack somebody or, you know, do something. It's just a miscommunication. Like, 95%, it's just miscommunications, and so I like the fact that you're like, hey, yeah, you need to set that up.

But if it hasn't happened yet, you know. Or maybe it did happen, and the company had great intentions for, like, this culture to be amazing, and… but then all of a sudden, they hire in new people, which is… I don't know, I'd love to hear your take on sometimes where you can start to see those, like, pit… like, avoid those pitfalls before it even slips, but it's usually a new leadership coming in, they haven't… been indoctrinated or, you know, have seen… seen how the culture can work like that, and I think there is an element, just human beings, we immediately want to show value, we immediately want to do this, this, and this, and it's like, oh, actually, that's going to change the culture, and that's gonna maybe, adjust some of the safety space that we've already created, and so even though they're, you know, ambitious and want to do well. It oftentimes is counterintuitive and actually, you know. can cause the psychological safety to slip, especially because it's a new person. And now you have to build that trust with that person, and it's not the company, and so… Yep.

Kiki Wilkinson: So, a couple things. I think, first, I think you're totally right. I think that with those Designed Alliance conversations, if… if that's something that's almost required when you come in as a leader, hey, you know, this is how… this is part of your onboarding, is to have these Designed Alliance conversations with these people, right? This is how I work, this is how you work, how do we work together? having those conversations up front, because if you tell me, if I have that conversation with you, and you tell me, hey, I really like time to process.

I don't like being put on the spot, so I'd much rather have you send me an email with some of the feedback points, so that I can digest it and ask, you know, think about questions that I have, you know, and then bring it to our one-on-one and have a real discussion about it. That's how I would like to receive feedback. Okay, great, so if I then do that the next time I have feedback for you, positive or constructive.

I'm building that trust with you, because I listened to what you said, and I took action based on what you said, right? And I could even say that again, hey. you know, I know you said that you prefer feedback via writing. I just wanted to send you a quick email and say, it was so great to have you do that presentation today. You did such a great job. Everyone was so engaged. Thank you so much for doing this. If you want to chat more about it in our one-on-one you know I'm there for it. All of a sudden, you're like, oh, they listened to me, and their actions, you know, actions speak louder than words. not only did they say, oh yeah, I'll do that, but they actually did it. And so I think that's a huge proactive piece of this. I think the other thing that I want to talk about is the fact that I talk about leadership not so much in terms of someone's role, or title, or level. but more so their influence and the impact that they have within the organization. So you can really lead from anywhere, right? You could be a brand new employee, and you could have leadership qualities and really lead a team, right? Not from a management perspective.

Anna Swayne: Right, yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: But really influence the people around you. We had people that joined Airbnb that were, like, from the big tech companies. It was, like, when people were like, oh, Airbnb is a thing. after everyone was like, that will never work. And then we started hiring, like, ex-Facebook and ex-Google and, you know, all these folks that had so much experience. I was a surgery scheduler before Airbnb, so, like, at… heck, what? Like, I didn't really know what I was doing, it was just faking it till I made it in the beginning. And so some of these people came in, and they weren't necessarily leaders of me, they were sometimes my peers, they were sometimes on my team. But they showed up as leaders. They had impact, they had influence, not just with me, but with other people within the organization, really positive impact and influence.

And I think teaching that within an organization, I think is another piece of this, because if you teach that, if you, and if you live that, right, I think teaching everyone at any level, how do you show up as a leader? How do you receive feedback as a leader? How do you give feedback as a leader? How do you manage up? Right? I think then, when you're bringing someone new in. no matter who is interacting with that person, if that person is showing up in a way that doesn't jive with the culture, or is negatively impacting in some way, there's not this fear of, like, but they're a manager, so I can't say anything. There's this, like… hey, you know, I have some feedback for you. I know that you're new to the organization, I'd love to share a couple things with you if it works for you. Do you want to set up a one-on-one? Would you rather have it in email? Again, Designed Alliance conversation.

Anna Swayne: Love it, love it.

Kiki Wilkinson: And then be able to have that conversation, because then they're hearing that information, and it's not this, like, oh, but it's a new leader, so no one's gonna say anything, but everyone's gonna stop talking, and everyone's gonna turn away.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: you know, that's really where it's a slippery slope. Once that starts, it's hard to regain that trust again, and so if you just have that one person who's willing to be like, hey, I have some feedback for you, and hopefully it's more than one person, and this person gets it from a couple different angles, and they're like, oh, shit, I need to adjust, right? In some way. Yeah.

Anna Swayne: Okay, so you've already started to outline, okay, what are some of those early signals? Let's just list those off so everyone's like, okay, easily can identify.

Kiki Wilkinson: Oh, yeah.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, what would you say, like, what are those early signs that that… that psychological safety is slipping… slipping before it fully breaks down? In this example with the leader, it was like, they were, you know, behavior was not aligned with… maybe they hadn't had the conversation, the Designed Alliance conversations yet, so they came in, you know, a little bit guns a-blazin'. But if a culture already exists where it is safe, you know, people hopefully will give that feedback. If they stop giving that feedback, I guess that's an early sign.

Kiki Wilkinson: Absolutely.

Anna Swayne: What else would you say?

Kiki Wilkinson: I think that it's really, there's a couple different things. So I think first, I think just engagement in general. There's… engagement goes up and down, right? Like, that's normal within an organization, especially, like, after a really busy season.

Engagement can go down a little bit, and that is normal, and so I don't want to, like, make any… if there's any HR leaders in this room, I don't want anyone to, like, panic, right? We're just coming off of the holidays and all of that, and so it might look different for different organizations, but just knowing what that flow typically looks like for your organization, and noting where there might be Like, a massive shift. Right? So, engagement is a huge one. Changes in energy, again, like, these things are normal, and they happen, but if you notice that you've made a change within an organization, maybe you've made a big decision to shift the initiative, you know, or the goal of the organization, or you've brought on new leadership, I think after every change, really paying attention to how that change is impacting the vibe, the energy, the engagement, you know, are people still asking questions? Are they still showing up accountable for their actions? Are they… Still having those uncomfortable conversations, those repair conversations, those are all signs that psychological safety is still intact, so if those are not present, that would be a sign that it's starting to break down in some way.

And I think it's really easy to be like, well, maybe it's just, you know, Kiki said that it's natural to go up and down, so we'll just wait it out and see. Like, that's not what I'm saying. I think calling out the obvious is a really good way, and I know I'm kind of getting into actually how to repair, how to identify and what to do next, but… It's okay to notice Hey, you know, I've noticed… hey, team. I've noticed that our team meetings have kind of fallen a little flat, or we haven't really, I haven't heard as many ideas from you all. I know we're just out of the holidays, so it could just be that, but I just wanted to check in. How's everyone feeling?

Anna Swayne: Right? Like…

Kiki Wilkinson: Sure. Pulse check, like, just… Yeah.

Anna Swayne: Love that.

Kiki Wilkinson: Again, it's like being a human. I think it's so easy sometimes. You know, our nervous system is like, okay, we gotta get the things done, right? And it's, like, so easy to not focus on the human side. And the human side is complex and hard, and so, you know, it's easy to avoid, right? Yeah. It's hard to measure, too.

Anna Swayne: Because you're like… It's hard to measure. I don't know how this person… yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, exactly. But I think, ultimately, one of the biggest things that I would… talk about… that I have talked about either in coaching sessions or in presentations with clients, has been really focusing on your own intuition. We have mirror neurons in our brain, and so if there's tension in a room, you know that… that feeling where, like. You walk into a room, and nothing bad is happening in the room, but you can feel the tension when you walk into it, and you're like, ugh.

Right? Like, those are our mirror neurons. So even if we don't know for a fact that there was tension, maybe right before you got in the room, someone said something that, you know, turned someone else off. we can feel that, right? And so pay attention to it. And it's okay, I think oftentimes we think, again, as leaders, we have to solve it. Oh, well, if I identify it, I need to solve it. No, no, not… there's no need to solve it in the moment. It's more important to be able to say, hey, I feel like there's a little tension here.

How are things going? Where do we want to go next? Do we want to table this? Do we want to come back to it in our next team meeting? Do we want to talk one-on-one about this, and then we can move forward? What would be best for folks? I think just calling. the tension, like, notice what you're feeling, call it out. The best case scenario is people are like, oh, no, no, no, we were just… we were talking about this thing, and it's a little stressful, because we're trying to get it done by Friday, but we're good, we're good, everything's good. Okay, great. Like, let's move on. But if someone's like, no, everything's fine. Like, you can feel… you can feel Right?

Anna Swayne: You can feel that, yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, so I think just, like, trusting your own intuition, and trusting the fact that if there is tension, if you're feeling that, if you're feeling like there's sudden silence from someone who's typically very engaged, or body language, right? Like. body language is, like, I think it's 80% of our communication, or something crazy like that. But, you know, if someone is leaning in, and they're having this conversation, and someone says something, and all of a sudden that person has their arms crossed and is totally leaned back.

Anna Swayne: Well, yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: like, bodily disengaged from the conversation that says something. And maybe it's not something you want to call out in the session, right? Like, that's the other thing, is it's… it's not… if you're in a group, and someone does that. They're already kind of in a defensive mode, body language-wise, potentially. at that point, their prefrontal cortex, that rational brain, is offline, their amygdala is in control, which is like our threat center.

Anna Swayne: Mmm.

Kiki Wilkinson: If you try to say, like, hey, Anna, what's going on? Like, it seems like you're disengaged in front of the entire team. I'll be like.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: Right? Like, that's not actually gonna do anything positive, and so noting it, but then maybe coming back and saying, hey, I noticed in that meeting you weren't as engaged as you typically are, and I just wanted to check in and see how things are, right? Don't assume, just get curious, and ask the question.

Anna Swayne: Love the Curiate, yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, be curious about it, and yeah, I think it's, it's not, it's not about judging it, it's not about trying to fix it right away. I think it really is just being curious and asking, right? How are things going? Those pulse checks, right?

Anna Swayne: But I think it's so… I think, like you said, is like, if the leader is stressed out, or the leader is, you know, moving so fast. I mean, it's gotta be pretty easy to miss that and not take the time to be curious. Yeah. How do you help clients who may… have a challenge with that. It's maybe not natural, and I know we're kind of jumping into, like, solve, but I am, like, as we're talking about this, I think it's very important to give permission, or I don't know, I'm curious how you coach. On this, because I think it's so easy, you know, I put myself in this situation, you got deadlines, you want to check in, like, you have good intentions, but you just… that little slip of, oh, they're not engaged, I'll follow up with them later, and then you don't, and then it starts to really break down.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, so I have, like, a really easy fix for this, but then I have, like, a bigger picture, because it's not… it's not just this. But I do think… for really fast organizations, where things are happening really quickly, and it's easy to, like, notice something but then not say anything, if you just have, like, a little reminder on your calendar, maybe it's every Friday, every Friday morning, there's, like, a 30-minute block, and it says, pulse check.

Right? And it gives you the space to reflect on the week, and to go, how have things gone this week? there's a few things that can happen with that. One, you might go, oh my gosh, I forgot about that, but on Tuesday, when I had that conversation with Anna. I was so impressed by her saying these things. I need to give her that positive feedback, right? So it could be positive feedback that you're thinking of.

Anna Swayne: Interesting, yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: be constructive feedback that you're thinking of. It could also be that exactly what you said, like, oh, I noticed that in our meeting on Tuesday, Anna wasn't as engaged as she typically is. I'm going to note that in our one-on-one, or how does she like to receive feedback? How can I give a.

Anna Swayne: That's true.

Kiki Wilkinson: for her, that's gonna be best. Should I send it in an email? Is that gonna be better? Or should I ask her out loud? But I want to check in with her and just make sure she's good. And then do it during that 30-minute block, right? 30 minutes is a good amount of time to kind of reflect on your week.

Anna Swayne: Jot down the couple…

Kiki Wilkinson: of things that come to mind, and then either put it on one-on-one docs to talk about in the next week, or send the email, right?

Anna Swayne: in the email.

Kiki Wilkinson: to folks. maybe this is better on a Monday, I don't know, like, whatever works best for people, but…

Anna Swayne: One day. Yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, like, that's a really small thing, but I think if it's just the fact that, like, we're moving so quickly, because I feel this, right? We're moving so quickly. And it can be really challenging to pause and reflect, and I think that's the biggest benefit of coaching, is it just gives you that space to go, oh, I didn't have anything when I came in this room, but now that I'm thinking about it, I have this challenge coming up, and I really should do this, and I don't know how to approach that, right? I think… so I think that's one thing. I think the other thing that I would say is just normalizing the fact that our… nervous system… how our nervous systems work. So, when we're stressed.

Our attention and our focus is narrowed. We put our blinders on a little bit. And it's harder to… bring in those emotional cues, or those… be attuned to those emotional cues. Instead, we're more focused on tasks, because those… our prefrontal cortex is like, okay, I'm stressed, I'm trying to just focus on the things, and so it's, like, task-oriented, right? Instead of… kind of a broader lens of how are people feeling, what is the vibe, all the soft skills, I'm gonna put it in quotations. But I think… I think that's another thing, just to, like, normalize that, right? Like…

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: this is a stressful time of year. As a reminder, it's really easy for us to put our blinders on during this time of year, so I want to urge everyone to check in with your people, check in with your colleagues, make sure folks are feeling good, if there's anything that you can shift, right? Like, help each other out.

I think it's… again, it's like bringing that human back into the work, because when we're stressed, it's like, well, if I just work a little longer, I'll get the to-do list done, or my email will be cleared, but we know that it's all going to come back the next day, like… you know, it's… it's… we can do it to ourselves, but we can also do it to people around us, so we can avoid listening to our own body that is like, hey, I need a break, and you're like, yeah, but I just.

Anna Swayne: I have to get these.

Kiki Wilkinson: things done, right? Because you're stressed, and so you have that narrow focus. So, yeah.

Anna Swayne: I think there's a…

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, I think there's a few things there that, it's normalizing how our bodies work, normalizing humans, that we're not machines, and I think sometimes we just need those reminders. I know I need those reminders. And I think it's also finding what works for you in terms of having that space, whether it's having a coach, or it's having that space on your calendar. I think someone mentioned in the chat something about, if it's a private calendar or not. And I love what this person said. She adds additional notes as the week goes by to the calendar event. So, as she's going, and she notices something.

Anna Swayne: Good idea.

Kiki Wilkinson: it to the calendar event, right? Which I love that idea.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, so whether you have, like, a, you know, your own dock, I always had my own dock that I could kind of, like, throughout the week, it was just open on my computer, and I had each of my employees, my project.

Anna Swayne: team members.

Kiki Wilkinson: My colleagues, and sometimes weeks would go by and nothing was on that list. But sometimes weeks would go by, really stressful periods, and it was like, I have, you know, feedback, or I have things I want to check in with people on, and then on Mondays, I would look at that list, and I would pull anything I would need as I prepared for my one-on-ones, or team meetings, or project meetings that week.

So, play around, I think experimenting a little bit, finding what works for you. I think it all starts with awareness, though. So, if we can be aware of how our nervous systems work, be aware of you know, why is it important to reflect? Why is it important to keep track of these things? that's the starting point, and then look inwards. How do I… why do I avoid this? Do I avoid it because I'm conflict adverse? That would be me.

Anna Swayne: I agree.

Kiki Wilkinson: okay, how do I… how do I do this in a way that works for me, right? And how can I just do 5% more, okay? It's not about, like, I need to change everything that I do, change my whole schedule, and, you know, so just doing little bits at a time, that's what cultivates that shift or that change. Yeah.

Anna Swayne: I like that. And you talked about micro-moments at the top of this discussion, and that shapes culture that also can repair it.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: Like, bring it, yeah, to bring it back through some of these, little things, like a calendar invite to reflect. And I think, too, like.

What a, like, as, as you've coached, as you've coached. And as you've helped create peop… you know, create… Because this is a behavioral change sometimes. You're, you know, leaders, or HR leaders or business leaders, anybody who's in that role.

About how long does it take to, like. I don't know, form… form a habit, or… you know, maybe even see… because I think sometimes we can get down on ourselves as leaders, it's like, oh, it's not happening fast enough. And I think… I just want to talk… I just want to, like, briefly talk about that for just a second, because I think we're so easy to get down on ourselves, like, we're trying this, it's not working. I don't know, just trying Experience, what would you say? How do I answer that?

Kiki Wilkinson: It's so different for every person. I think that it depends on the level of self-awareness. It depends on that person's motivations. Are they attending these coaching sessions because their manager told them they should attend coaching sessions? Or are they attending the coaching session because they actually really want to make that shift or that change?

Anna Swayne: It's a big.

Kiki Wilkinson: difference in the motivation, the intrinsic motivation someone has. Like, we can have extrinsic motivation, and… oh, well, my manager said I should do it, and I want to do what my manager said. Like, yeah, there's some motivation there. They might show up for coaching sessions, but coaching isn't magic, and it's not like I'm doing the work for them, right? And so, it's a partnership, and so it really does depend. I have incredible clients who all feel very motivated to grow and be better and show up in a really intentional way. And I think it's also dependent on how people process. I know that for some people, you know, part of the session is me holding up a virtual trash can while they get it all out and, like, do a little vent sesh, right? And, like.

Anna Swayne: Interesting. I love that. I like that.

Kiki Wilkinson: now I feel like I can move forward, right? I needed to get all the gunk out of the way in a non-judgmental space, right? Yeah. And I think that's okay. I don't think it's about, like, oh, just button it up and, like, get over it, like, we have emotion, like, let yourself have the emotion. There's a reason for it, it's data. But I think, to your question, habits are really interesting. There's a really good book, Atomic Habits, by…

Anna Swayne: I do love that book.

Kiki Wilkinson: James Clear. Great book. The thing that really stuck with me with that book that I talk a lot with clients about is habit stacking. So if it's a specific habit that you're trying to, add in. How can you stack it with something that you already do? So, I'll use an example. For my Monday mornings, when I would have that, you know, I'd go back and I'd look at my notes and I'd prep for my week.

That started as just prepping for my week. I have a lot of anxiety, I have Sunday scaries, and so if I know that, like, I'm coming into the office, and on Monday morning I'm not meeting with anyone for the first hour. It's just sitting down, getting prepared for my week. looking at my to-do list, updating my emails, like, if I know I have that kind of prep time or that transition time, I had less of the Sunday scaries. And I still use this, like, I still do this even with my business. But then habit stacking for me with that was once I started having this doc, which I learned from one of, you know, someone else I worked with, they were like, oh.

I was like, I just can't keep track of everything. My team was growing, and their teams were growing, and it was happening so fast. And it was one of those, you know, bigwig tech people that came in, and I was like, I'm overwhelmed! And they were like, oh, this is how I do it. And I was like, oh, that's so organized, like, I want to be that organized. And so it allowed me to… I was able to have it stack on that Monday morning meeting with myself, right? And so, I was able to go, okay, well, in addition to, like, looking at my emails and getting my action items set up, you know, I'm gonna also look at my list from the week. And it took a little bit for me to remember. I think I probably I don't quite remember, but I'm sure I probably put some reminders throughout the week when I was first starting that. Like, do you have anything… maybe it was, like, at the end of every day?

Anna Swayne: Do you have anything to add?

Kiki Wilkinson: to your notes, doc?

Anna Swayne: Oh, yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: Was there anything from today that you want to add? And then it became more of a habit, and more of a habit. And sometimes I wouldn't write anything on it, and then Monday morning meeting would come, and it would be, like, prep for my week, and I was like, oh, I remember some things from last week that I want to write down, right? So… you know, I think be patient with yourself. I do think that change doesn't happen by reinventing yourself all at once.

That's actually not how change happens. It's… it's like the opposite. Your body gets overwhelmed by that, and it'll go back to old patterns, and then you get stuck in those old patterns. And so, if you notice that you have a pattern that you want to adjust. go back to that 5%. What's the 5% shift that you can make? And then give yourself, you know, give yourself a week, and then check in with compassion, right? Like, I think that's the other thing that we sometimes do, is we're like.

I don't know, I'm a recovering perfectionist, so it's easy for me to go, well, you know, I should, I should, I should, I should. Well, instead, being able to go, huh, that didn't work very well for me this week. Why didn't it work very well? The same curiosity that you would give to others, give that, like, non-judgmental, compassionate curiosity to yourself, where you're like. why didn't that work for me? Yeah. Because what works for me isn't gonna work for everybody else. And I think that's the other part that comes out in coaching, and when I said, like, everyone is different. I think it's really about figuring out what are your patterns, what's your intention, where do you… what's the ideal look like?

And then let's experiment a little bit. There's times when, like, I have a plethora of ideas, the ADHD, and so I might share something, I'm like, let's try this, and they're like, that will never work for me. Like, all right, trash that one, let's move on to the next one, right? And so it's like, some of it's ideation, and just figuring out, like, what are some options? How can… how can someone try something? And then check in and go, that actually worked really well, I could be better at it, but I liked how it worked, so now I'm gonna try and implement it more often, or I'm going to, you know, whatever that might be. But I think that's the biggest part of it, is, again. It's hard to do that if you don't give yourself the space. To kind of reflect on your own patterns, how you want to show up, and make that part you know, part of the plan. It's the new year, so it's a good time, too.

Anna Swayne: Perfect time.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, curious with yourself.

Anna Swayne: It's a perfect time to be curious to yourself, and have these conversations, these design… I keep saying it out loud so I remember. The design alliance conversations.

Kiki Wilkinson: Absolutely.

Anna Swayne: Because, you know, that sets the tone for the year, I think with your team. It probably helps protect, the psychological safety that's already been established. I am curious, as… you know, if… if I'm a leader, or people on this call are like, yes, I want to start doing this, like… Sometimes… and just to hit back on the feedback, it's like, sometimes feedback can… you know, as you're learning how your employees or other teammates want to receive it, you're not going to get it right. So, of course, you want to have patience with yourself. But what happens, and how do you… how you… how… let's just talk about the leader. How do you, as a leader. Tell when feedback didn't hit, right? Or how do you coach between employees who aren't You know, aligning, and they're trying to get feedback. Like, everyone wants to move in the same direction, and assuming the safety has been established, but you're starting to see it slipped… slip.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: I guess, yeah, how do you coach those different scenarios?

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, I think reinforcing shared goals, coming back together, you know when, you build a presentation, you're always supposed to have, or, like, a speaking engagement, like a TED talk or whatever, they always have, like, a hook at the very beginning that, like, gets everyone to nod along, and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right? Finding those shared goals is kind of like the hook. So…

Anna Swayne: Okay.

Kiki Wilkinson: Maybe there's two employees that just really don't get along, and they have different personalities, they process differently, they communicate differently, and they just… don't get along. And maybe they've both tried. And both of them are like, duh, this person is driving me nuts, right? Like, it just isn't working. I think, you know, what can you agree on? Maybe you can't agree on how to go about this part of this project, but can you agree on some part of the success of the project, or the next step, or how it's impacting the broader organization?

So I think it does, whether it's two employees, or it's a group of employees, maybe you're noticing less engagement, maybe you're noticing some tension on the team, maybe, you know, again, it doesn't matter how many people there are. I think, first of all, just naming it. Hey, I've noticed some of this tension, or I've, I've noticed some of these things, I just want to check in, right? And checking in with individuals, it gives you more information, pulling in that curiosity.

And making… helping people feel heard. I think that's another piece of this. Like, our nervous systems feel safe when… or safer, maybe not fully safe, but safer when we feel heard, when we have that space to feel heard without judgment. And also when we have a choice. So, you know, that, like I said before, like, maybe you say something, or maybe it's a difficult topic, right? Like, I was doing some work for a tech company when I first started consulting, and we were doing anti-discrimination trainings. And building out the training. And there was some really challenging stuff that we had to look at, and talk about. And as a white cis woman. I was feeling uncomfortable. I… it was a very diverse room of people, and so I felt it immediately, and was like, I feel so uncomfortable. So I just paused, and I was like, this is a hard topic.

And if anyone's feeling uncomfortable, that's totally normal. I know I'm feeling a little uncomfortable. I called it out. I was like, I'm a white cis woman, and we're talking about anti-discrimination. This is not something that I deal with on a day-to-day basis. maybe as a woman, but not to the extent that some of the other people have in this room. And so, first of all, I want to call that out and have all of us just kind of take a collective breath and pause for a minute. We're all safe in this space.

And then, number two, giving people the choice, so calling it out, and then giving people the choice. Is this something that we want to come back to? We can go in this direction and come back to this, or we can continue. But continuing to kind of take baby steps and check in along the way. That helps make our nervous system feel safe. rather than feeling the tension, but, like, it's just… the ride is still going, and I am on it, and I can't stop it, and, you know, like, that's anxiety, right?

Anna Swayne: Oh, yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: So, so yeah, I think… I think it's reinforcing shared goals. Hey, you know, we're here to talk about this. We're here to create this end product, here's how it's going to impact the organization. But this is a really challenging topic, and it's okay if it feels uncomfortable.

How do we want to move forward? Right? So I think that's a big piece of it. I think also, when it is two people, the slippery slope that I've seen in the past is like, oh, let's just shut these two people in a room and have them duke it out, and that never hurts people.

Anna Swayne: Yes, I've heard of that happening.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, like, there's… there's a bit of, like, there's preparation that needs to happen, right? Making sure both parties feel heard, making sure there's a framework for the discussion. It's gonna feel awkward, it's always awkward when you have, like, you're following the framework. Like, I know that still, when I give constructive feedback to someone, I state my intention first. why am I giving the feedback? What's the purpose of me sharing this information? What's my intention, right? What's the situation? What's the behavior that I noticed? And what's the impact that it had? And then following it up with some curiosity. How does that land for you? You know, what… how do you feel about that? And giving them the space to talk, right? it's still a framework, and I feel a little bit like, okay, my intention is, right? Like, it's just… I feel awkward, and so I might call that out and say, like. you know, I have a little bit of feedback, this is my intention in giving it. I always feel a little awkward giving feedback, but I have some notes here I just want to walk through, because I really want to make sure this lands in the best way possible, right? Like, no one's going to be mad at you.

For looking at your notes and, like, trying to go through something that you've prepped, and so that goes for, you know, where you're repairing something. Or, you know, helping two other people repair something. And co-regulation, I think, is also something that is really important before cognitive resolution is even possible. like.

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Kiki Wilkinson: I chatted with a client recently who is… has a difficult conversation that they have to have this week with an employee, and we talked a little bit about, like, it seems silly, but, like, before you go into that conversation, you already have everything prepared, like, what you're gonna say, right?

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Kiki Wilkinson: But before you go into it, feel both of your feet firmly on the ground. Take a moment to take a breath, calm your body, notice if you're holding your shoulders, just, like, try to release some tension. remind yourself of what your intention is walking into this conversation, right? Like, I want to bring in the humanity in this conversation, I want to be, kind in this conversation, but I also want to make sure that I get through the things that I need to get through, which are some difficult topics. And just give yourself 30 seconds To just ground, because that vibe, the same way that you walk and you're like, the tension, I feel it.

People can also feel if they walk into a room and someone goes, hey. I know this isn't the conversation either of us really want to have today, it's a hard conversation to have. But here's why it's important. Here's my intention during our conversation today, right? If you come in with that vibe, rather than like, alright, so, you know, I know this isn't what we want to do today, but, you know, we have to do it because of these reasons. Like, I'm saying the same thing.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, that's…

Kiki Wilkinson: The vibe is very different.

Anna Swayne: It feels different. It feels different as I'm receiving.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah. The more human way versus, yeah, it's a checkbox, and here we go. Yeah.

Anna Swayne: I love that, because it's… it's… the preparation is key here.

You… you could have the right framework, you could have everything, but like you said, if you're not prepped going in, then it's not gonna land, and you're gonna miss that moment, that micro-moment, that's gonna now turn into a very big thing, that might make or break the repairing that you're trying to accomplish.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, and just real quick, the formula for that preparation, because I think sometimes people are like, well, I don't know how to prep, and so then they get stuck, and then they don't prep. This is, like, this is literally a coaching framework that I use almost every day. is, okay, what's your intention? So, looking at where do you want to go? What's the ideal state? Paint that picture for me. How do you feel? How does the other person or the other people feel? Right? What is… paint the vision, right?

Kind of like what you would do in professional sports. Picture yourself winning the trophy, right? Making that final basket and winning… you make all your free throws, and you win the trophy, and all the things, right? So, like, really getting someone to visualize that. And to… to say it out loud, like, what is… what is the intention? Because I think sometimes we think we know what the… well, I just want it to go well. What does that mean?

Anna Swayne: What is that?

Kiki Wilkinson: So well.

Anna Swayne: Absolutely neat, yeah.

Kiki Wilkinson: Right. And then figure out where are we starting from. So we've defined where… because coaching is just literally helping someone get from point A to point B. So what is point B? Where are we going? Where are we now on the map? And then being able… some people like to work backwards, some people like to work forwards, some people.

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Kiki Wilkinson: I, like, I work in a constellation, so it's a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and then I put it all in order. But I think it's… that's really what coaching is, and so whether you do that on your own, or you have a coach support you with that process.

As a coach, I have a coach, because it's so helpful to have someone else who is, like a third party, who's not invested in the same way, who doesn't have the same emotions, to kind of help me pull myself out of the weeds and see the forest from the trees. And go, oh, this is where I want to go, this is where I am now, okay, here's my plan, and all of a sudden, my prep is now done. And it probably took less time than if I tried to do it on my own.

Anna Swayne: Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's why everyone needs a coach like you. It's like, you're not involved in the politics, I will call it, and the emotion of the day-to-day that a business is trying to achieve, and so having… someone with, you know, with that mindset to get you from point A to point B, no matter how you're doing it, and however your leaders need to get there, I love that you're just so adaptable in that way, and you approach it just so, scientific, but with heart. You know, you talk about, like, the… the… the capabilities of our… our nervous system, but with the human heart of, like, hey, you have to adjust and be fluid. So, Kiki, you've been fantastic. I will… I can't… I just looked at the time, and I was like, where did it go? This is always how it is. This is always how it is. So, just as a quick, like, wrap-up, what would you say, like, just one small thing that our audience here could take, today and go and do, if they are seeing and evaluating their team slipping. What would just be, like, one quick action?

Kiki Wilkinson: I think, especially as leaders, introducing some sort of a sentence of intention or permission for your team. you know, if something lands wrong, I want us to be able to name it and repair it so we can all move forward in an aligned and productive way. Again, that's a great hook, right? Everyone's gonna be like, yeah, yeah, we want that. Everyone wants to move forward in an aligned and productive way. And just remembering that it's not about avoiding conflict. Conflict, is actually a sign that there's engagement. It's about repairing conflict with intention. I think leaders can model in these micro-repair moments, in one-on-ones, hey.

I don't think that went as well as it could have. How could we do it better next time? I'd love to hear your perspective, right? checking in with people, just doing those pulse checks that we talked about, and I think the main thing to remember is that psychological safety isn't really about comfort. I think we conflate sometimes. It's more about building trust during the discomfort.

Anna Swayne: Mmm. If that makes sense. I like that. Yeah, I like that. You see me taking notes right now? Yes.

Kiki Wilkinson: I love it.

Anna Swayne: Name it so you can repair it.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yes.

Anna Swayne: I think that's so important, normalizing that, like, it's a… yeah, we can't talk about that.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: Okay. Awesome.

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: This has been incredible. Where do people go to learn more about you and what you do?

Kiki Wilkinson: Yeah, my website is thrivemindcollaborative.com, it's, like, the longest thing ever, but it's ThriveMind, it's a play on Hive Mind, but Thriving, right? ThriveMind, and then Collaborative.com.

You can sign up for my newsletter there, it's free. I do micro-series, I just started those last year, and people seem to really like them. They're just little, kind of a 5%, the one that's actually going out on Thursday this week, you still have time to sign up, is talking about that 5%, making those 5%, habits. So exactly what we talked about earlier. And yeah, you can contact me from there as well. Definitely let me know if you have additional questions, if there's… I know we totally, like, ran up on time. I saw some things in the chat, so if we want to save the chat, I'm more than happy to reach out to folks or share, answers to questions that came up if we didn't get to them. But feel free to reach out. You can always email me, ask questions there. You don't have to hire me to ask questions, so… please feel free to reach out anytime. And thank you so much again for having me, Anna. This has just been so fun. I have really enjoyed these conversations, and I hope they're helpful.

Anna Swayne: 100%, yeah, this has been incredible. Well, yes, hopefully you'll all go check out Kiki and learn more… sign up for your newsletter. I'm gonna go do that. I didn't know, I could do that, but I'm going to. If you want to join us, at our next webinar, I think we have one coming up here. I'm… forgetting Autumn when that is, but it's… if you're thinking about self-funding, we have something coming up next week, and this is really a big move. People want to control their costs for benefits, so we're doing a webinar around that, and that should be really fascinating, because it's not as hard as you might think it is. Okay, and with that, if you haven't joined up, joined our community, please do that.

But I know we're over time, so I'll let you guys all go back to enjoy your day. It's free to join our community. You can continue the conversation, with other HR leaders who are in there, and it's a non-judgment, sharing, tips and tricks type of community, so… Thanks, everybody! Hope you have a wonderful rest of your day and week, and we'll see you next time. Thanks!

Kiki Wilkinson: Thank you!

‍